Jim interviewed Eliza today at the Off The Map conference, Inside the Missional Matrix. The podcast of the interview is here:
Interview with a missional minded atheist.
In the interview, Jim talked to Eliza about her experience taking a Lutheran class. You can find Eliza’s detailed reports on that class here:
Benjamin and Megan Ady attended the conference. Megan has shared her reflections about it over on our Church Rater blog.
Posted in An atheist (Eliza) in Lutheran class | 13 Comments »This class was about Judgment Day, resurrection, and Heaven. Stuff I don’t believe in. The class discussion was aimed at Christians. The only thing the pastor said that was applicable to me (in my current belief state) was this: “The only reason a human being will go to Hell is because you won’t believe in Jesus,” his way of rephrasing 2 Thess 1:8-9.
I’ve been mulling this topic over, & will start with general thoughts before moving on to the class report. IMO, this topic is more “touchy” than other class topics - more likely to bring out rancor between people with different beliefs. (But I could easily be wrong…or, it could be obvious & I’m the last person to realize this!)
I can imagine, when it comes to the afterlife, that non-believers must seem horribly misguided and pitiful to believers. We must seem like people who are drowning but deny it, who won’t grab the life-rings thrown to us, who are whistling Dixie even as the waters close over our heads. Even worse, it may seem like we doomed non-believers are trying to grab onto our would-be rescuers & drag them (you) down with us.
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OK, pleasant surprise, this class was interesting. As I look back over my notes, the pastor’s discussion was more interesting than the text’s comments on this topic. (The text starts this topic off with: “The child of God enjoys high privileges, not the least of which is prayer.” The text could stand to be revised to meet the 21st century, methinks.) I suspect I found the discussion of this topic more interesting because it was less judgmental and more personal (more real human-life details) than some of the other class topics. Also, I learned some interesting things!
1. What is prayer? Read the rest of this news item »
The text quotes from Psalm 10 & 19 to conclude that prayer is talking to God either with the heart and lips, or only with the heart. The pastor reminded us that God speaks to people in Word and Sacrament. He added that people speak to God in prayer: “Prayer is just talking to God.” I like that description; it’s simple, and it simply describes what the person is doing, without assuming alot.
The discussion in the first half hour of Class #13 was a review of Class #12, The Church. I wondered how much of what the pastor said in this review others Christians would agree with, and how much others might disagree with. My writeup of Class #13, Prayer, should be done within a few days (delayed due to time constraints this week).
Some comments that came up in the review include:
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I’d missed two class sessions (ended up having to work late), but made it to this session last week. Here are some thoughts:
1. Sorry, but these classes are getting boring
It’s clear that I am not the intended audience for this class; at this point, it’s directed toward church members and potential church members. It’s become pretty boring, since I don’t share belief in the foundation that’s been laid down. (But I took notes and wrote up my thoughts below anyway. For what it’s worth!)
I confess that I brought a book, The Elegant Universe by Brian Greene, and read a chapter during class, while keeping half an ear on what the pastor was saying. (This is probably a sin.) It turns out, I found a parallel between the class topic and the book (see #8 below) - & it was only a little bit of a stretch!
2. A “first”! Read the rest of this news item »
I got to experience the disapproval of a church lady at the start of this class!! My first time ever!
I have to confess, I did not go to this class. On the same night this class was held, December 21, I went to the solstice service at my local UU church; that was much more enjoyable for me than this class would have been! But I did read this chapter of the text and have included it here, with comments from yours truly, in case anyone is interested in the reactions of an unchurched atheist (who bathes, but has never been baptized, and doesn’t plan to be).
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Free will. I keep reading about it whenever “the problem of suffering” comes up. (That problem being, “If God is beneficent, omnipotent, and/or omniscient, why is there suffering?”) It has come up briefly twice in my class, which didn’t meet last week due to the big windstorm we had. I thought I would get more out of bringing it up here for discussion than trying to probe it further in class, so here are my thoughts on free will. I’m very interested in your thoughts, comments, and explanations about this topic. (Speaking of suffering, 1.1 million “customers” lost power in the windstorm; over 100,000 are still without power a week later; ~100 people, mostly immigrants, have been treated for carbon monoxide poisoning at local hospitals; and 14 people have died from various storm-related events. Still, we are far, far better off than many places in the world.)
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The topic of this class was justification. For me, the topic was mostly boring (sorry, but it’s true), and the way it was presented was sometimes annoying. I sighed out loud several times, despite efforts not to. It was hard to listen to a person telling a group of other people what awful sinners they are, and to see the group of people sit there and take it. It seemed demeaning, from my (admittedly non-Christian) point of view.
But there was an interesting twist in my experience of this lecture. (I suspect it was designed to have this effect; there’s the skeptic talking!) Near the end of class, the pastor turned it into an upbeat pitch for salvation…and I was surprised that I responded by internally nodding and mentally saying “yeah!” for a few minutes. (No, I haven’t converted.) More about that whole part of it later. Read the rest of this news item »
Finally got there again! I had missed 2 classes to attend other events, and there were 2 weeks without class, so this class was the first one in 4 weeks for me.
This class was not only about the Holy Spirit, it was also about atonement and the various ways it has been misunderstood, and that led into some discussion about other denominations, and how to make sense of things that are hard to figure out.
In this class, I learned:
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This question stems from the textbook chapter for class #6. It’s not actually the focus topic for that class. (I’m pretty sure the text and pastor would answer “Yes!” - loud and clear - to the question above). But this question leaps out for me from some of the text’s statements. Below, I’ll go through the hot spots in the text, & my thoughts and reactions, and I would be very interested to hear what others think about this question & topic.
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